Posted Nov 02, 2016 by Michael L. Brown

According to Carl Lenz, pastor of the Hillsong megachurch in New York City, people are lost without Jesus and salvation is only found in Him.

Pastor Lentz shared this with me when we talked by phone on Tuesday, November 1, in response to my October 27 article, “Pastor Lentz, Can You Clarify Your Comments to Oprah?”

He was clear, unambiguous, and unashamed: Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through Him (John 14:6).

But first, a word of background.

I began my October 27 article stating, “Pastor Lentz, as you know, I've tried on several occasions to reach out to you privately (most recently this week), but without a response, so I'm asking you publicly if you would please clarify your recent comments made to Oprah Winfrey.”

My office had reached out to his office earlier in the week, but we were unable to get a response from Pastor Lentz (although we heard from other church staff), which was the same thing we experienced over the last two years.

Well, it turns out, he had no idea we were trying to contact him, and the moment he found out I wanted to interact, he tweeted me saying he was easy to reach. Within minutes, we had each other’s email addresses and were in contact.

But there’s more to the story.

Not only did he have no idea I had tried to contact him several times over the last couple of years, but he told me that he had actually tried to contact me after reading my letter to him on LGBT issues, and somehow, his email never got to me.

I had my staff check all our emails and sure enough, on October 18 of 2014, at 9:17 PM, Pastor Lentz had written this to me through our website.

Hi sir:

I read your letter and would love to get to know you. I gave my email info on this, look forward to hearing from you. Thank you for your letter and for its gracious tone while you expressed your views. It's appreciated.

Sincerely Carl Lentz

Somehow, his email fell through the cracks in our system, and I had no clue he had tried to reach out to me. And since I prize godly communication, I was mortified to see that this happened (no one on our staff can figure out how we overlooked the email).

That is one reason why we do our best to get a negative response from a leader – in other words, a leader telling us he or she is not interested in interacting – before addressing things publicly. Miscommunication is more common than we realize, and we do well not to rush to judgment before we have all the facts.

So, to be clear, Pastor Lentz had no idea I had been trying to reach him, I had no idea he had tried to reach me, and he was eager to interact with me now.

And that leads me back to the present: Is Carl Lentz a heretic who believes there are many ways to God, as one of my Twitter followers recently alleged?

Pastor Lentz told me with passion that while people might differ with some things at Hillsong, there was no possible way anyone could accuse them (or him) of believing in universalism.

He said that he believes in John 14:6 with every fiber of his being, with his entire life, and so he doesn't know why he didn't quote the rest of the verse to Oprah (namely, that no one comes to the Father apart from Jesus) because that is absolutely what he believes.

When I asked him why he told Oprah that people can have a relationship with God without being a Christian, he said his intent was to say that everyone can have a relationship with God, but the question was will they, then he pointed to Jesus as the way.

But he was quite humble about these things, saying that he continues to learn and grow and wants to do a better and better job when he is in the public eye. At the same time, he wondered who had ever said to Oprah’s audience that the most important question is “Who is Jesus?” And as I pointed out in my previous article, Pastor Lentz said plainly in the Oprah interview that people needed to repent of their sin and bow their knee to God.

In that context, he urged people to listen to the whole interview and told me that he has heard from many people since the interview who want to get right with God.

When I asked him the question, “Are people lost without Jesus?” he said, “Without a doubt! He's the only hope of salvation. One hundred percent.” And, he added, “Without Jesus, you can have everything but have nothing. That's why I’ve given my life for Jesus and for souls.”

Can you be anymore plain than that? And while Pastor Lentz made clear to me that he was glad to answer my questions (because he recognized me as a brother with a redemptive heart) and that he had no desire to please his critics, I would say to his critics: You have no business accusing him of universalism in any shape, size, or form. He could not have been more clear.

I would also say to his critics: I am not here as an apologist for Hillsong, since I have never attended a Hillsong service in my life or read a book or listened to a full sermon by Brian Houston. I can only address my conversation with Pastor Lentz.

I would encourage you to watch his entire interview with Oprah, and if you feel you could have done a better job than he did, ask God to open the door for you to be on her show. And if that doesn’t happen, pray for Pastor Lentz to be an even more effective vessel, since God has opened great doors for him.

I am posting this article with the permission of Pastor Lentz.

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Comments

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ebus1973 posted a comment · Nov 03, 2016
I have great respect for you Dr. Brown. But if the opinions expressed in your article and the reported comments by Lentz were intended to help your readers breathe easy or ease our minds of any doubts that we may have regarding him as a Shepherd of the flock, in my opinion, it was terribly unsuccessful. We can't simply believe everything someone says. Even the demons believe! It should be obvious by now that he says things differently depending on who he's with and what he wants the specific audience to hear. Or he dodges issues altogether with responses that may appeal to the postmodern mind, but are filled with fluff, and lack any substance. This stuff is widely reported. He has one foot in and one foot out when it comes to standing firm on God's word and avoiding worldly influence. Again, all of this is clearly documented in previous interviews and news outlets. What else is clear are the worldly and irreverent events held at Hillsong Church including the Women's Conference featuring the Naked Cowboy, and the Silent Night rendition in 2015 just to name a couple. Plus, Lentz has clearly displayed an unwillingness to take a firm stand on issues that are crystal clear in the Bible, such as homosexuality. You always get a bunch of babble and never a plain answer. To be clear, all of these issues are problematic to say the least. It's been long enough. Lentz should not be given the benefit of the doubt or attempted to be justified by others because of what he says. For God's sake, let's look at what he does (and doesn't do), who he associates with, who and what he promotes, and use some discernment as we test all things according to the holy scriptures.
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Rev. Randy K. posted a comment · Nov 03, 2016
It is truly tragic that Pastor Lentz wasn't clear, unambiguous, and unashamed to declare that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through Him (John 14:6) in his response to Oprah Winfrey when millions of her viewers (and she herself) needed to hear the uncompromised truth. It takes no courage whatsoever to tell another Christian that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through Him. Jesus said that if we are ashamed of Him and His words, He will be ashamed of us when He comes in His Father's glory. This is not the first time pastor Lentz has been unclear, ambiguous, and ashamed of speaking the truth. If I recall correctly, the last time was over the issue of homosexuality. And Dr. Brown spent consider time trying to get pastor Lentz to clarify his beliefs on that issue as well. The last I knew (which was August 13, 2015) Pastor Lentz said that while gay couples cannot be in leadership in his church, they can still be serving in the church. If that is still the case it is tragic, simply tragic. Does anyone honestly know what Pastor Lentz actually believes--besides God? Why can't Pastor Lentz's answer(s) be the same regardless of who he is talking to? If there is one thing American Christians are so often guilty of it is compromising the truth of God's Word when they are "put on the spot."
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EBozic posted a comment · Nov 02, 2016
I'm glad to hear you got that issue resolved. I hope that some day you will actually have the opportunity to attend a Hillsong Church to really experience what God is doing in their midst. Sure, it's a megachurch, but I believe every church no matter how large or small has it's purpose. And just as diverse humanity is, so is the colorful expression of worship and preaching around the world. My family and I have the opportunity to hear Ps. Carl preach all the time about Jesus fully alive and fully the only way to salvation. So your original post was quite alarming since we'd not heard anything other than the opposite. Also, the church isn't perfect, no church is, but I think as a body of believers, we should spend less time overanalyzing and critiquing and more time understanding where we are all coming from and where God has uniquely placed us on this earth to do His work. Obviously, we want to stay away from heretics and those who preach a message contrary to Jesus' words and teaching. However, I think it's best to believe the best about a person or situation if and when we have questions and are unsure. That is after all the way of love. Thanks for posting the second article after further insight.